Friday, 05 May 2017
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I decided to start a new thread because this subject came up on the "Keys with display" Thread and I still have a lot of Ideas/Questions on this subject So I thought it might be a good Idea to start a thread on the topic of Alternative Keyboard layouts My Specific Layout interests are fast C language writing.
5 years ago
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#280
Radoslaw Chybicki Thanks for your attached links to your work with a modified programmers Dvorak for the KeyMouse. I have been doing a lot of looking around and am happy with your Version with the exception of some of the symbol characters again I am mainly interested in typing speed for entering C/C++ programs. so this layout is my attempt to optimize your template for Data entry in C. it may be actually worse for some of the newer languages. the first two attached links are References to Symbol Usage when writing C my goal was to get the Most used symbols so that they only needed a single keystroke. and all the rest so they did not use more than two keys. My modified version of the layout is the next two links. it is the first attempt and I do not even have my KeyMouse yet. So I realize I maybe missing a lot here So please @Everyone Feel free to Be nit-Picky I want to hear any Ideas/Problems now after all it will be much harder to change once I have committed it to muscle memory

NOTE: This is an updated link that has the completed version let me know if you have any questions.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B38pSN4OR41aUmR4ZHdkdG5UdWM
5 years ago
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#284
You might want to add in some fn yellow options on the left keymouse, not that you can't work that out later. Granted it's tricky to hold down the fn yellow key and type much on the left side but I suspect you might at times want to temporarily lock fn yellow down, so for me I have my fn yellow left side include characters I'm likely to type in concert with numbers. Maybe I could come up with better but for now I've got parentheticals, arrow keys (on the left).. those of course duplicate and are redundant to the blue layer but that means I don't have to keep switching between fn yellow and fn blue for some things. Anyway I'm pretty sure Heber and team left the fn yellow a bit open ended in part because it's hard to coordinate holding down fn yellow and those keys, but also in the interests of not being overly prescriptive and allowing folks to consider what works best for them. It could very well be that you want to have the usual keys on the left side still active while you're entering numbers and such via fn yellow. for someone using qwerty which I realize you aren't .. it might be a little confusing to have various ctrl/alt combinations on the left operate differently while the number pad is active.. so there's definitely some argument to just leaving them unmodified during fn yellow.. but I suspect that is less the case if you're already in programmer's dvorak so maybe you want to go at it with customizing your fn yellow on both sides
5 years ago
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#285
I suggested something about proposing making yet another layer, but I have some questions on the matter myself that are not really specific to your question and so I'm going to make it into a separate thread,
5 years ago
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#294
I made blue fn+right shift yellow fn so I can use the left side of the yellow layer. I put most of my math symbols on the left side of the yellow layer.

Some pics:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4Ltru9fdmPgenJXMWR0am1xV2s
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4Ltru9fdmPgVkpEZVA4eUZhVEk
(Note I swapped the shift keys with the keys above them because I find them easier to reach.)
(Also note that F13 and F14 are dek and el which are 10 and 11 for dozenal)
5 years ago
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#295
Jonathan, I'm curious what is your default layer, assuming you've customized it?
5 years ago
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#296
is it posible to make the yellow layer Lock as a shifted FN Yellow and be a toggle when adding the shift key?
5 years ago
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#297
Jonathan Levi I would also like to see your default layer too.
It looks like you don't have a lock for the yellow layer is that correct?
do you have a blank Keyboard picture that you would be willing to share? your key layouts look very nice.
5 years ago
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#299
John Topping I have started my plan is to put a the cursor keys and anything else I might need for keypad use then I would like the FN yellow to be similiar to a shift key you press the FN yellow do your numeric entry or entire numeric equations including Parrens (duplicated in yellow layer).

then I would like to make a mode if you press shift then FN yellow the layer would lock on/off with a Shift toggle style.
this would be great if you had a lot of numeric entery For me my 3 main Cad programs use a Spreadsheet like format to modify the parameter in the project. with the locked yellow layer I am trying to get all keys need on that layer to move around and edit these cells.

the Blue layer I always see as Just an alternate shift key.

I think I'm going to follow your lead with the esc key and move it to the right side I also don't use it much and Backspace is going to be high usage I think until I get this commited to memory (I am not looking forward to that part!)

Jonathan Levi I like the idea of adding media functions to the function keys didn't know that was and option. Thanks I will do that as well.

@everyone# please include other Layouts you have done in this thread as well. this way the thread can help people find many way to solve a problem and it just makes for better layouts.
5 years ago
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#301
@Everyone It's part of future our plans to built Layout sharing directly in the software, so that you can "Publish" your layouts, and others can easily import them from some kind of "directory" within the software. Just giving you hope that it's coming ;) Also, I'm working on a new UI design that I think will simplify the layer handling to be more intuitive. I'll post an image when I complete the proposed UI changes, and see what you guys think.
5 years ago
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#304
Herb Winters Hmm, I like what you're proposing to hit shift FIRST and then hit fn yellow to lock down fn yellow, but to my knowledge with the current software there's no way to do that unless you made a whole layer specifically for the shift key. You CAN make it so that when you hold fn yellow the shift key become fn yellow lock, which would mean you have to hit fn yellow first and hold it down while pressing shift. But that could be confusing because maybe you meant to just wanted to hit a shifted character within fn yellow without locking down fn yellow. You could do that, but then the only way you could do shifted characters within fn yellow would be mandatorily locking down fn yellow with shift. And then pressing shift again a second time in order to get to the shifted character. If you were to just hold down fn yellow and shift, then you would get the unshifted fn yellow character. Maybe that could be usable, but that would be my concern with the idea. There are definitely times I'd rather have fn yellow and a shifted character without actually locking it. But maybe that's uncommon enough to be no big deal.. Myself I currently lock down fn yellow and fn blue using the right click button on the left mouse. When the fn keys are inactive it does the normal right click, but if fn yellow or fn blue are down it locks them. In the event I screw up the sequence generally it's no big deal because right click usually doesn't cause much damage if pressed by accident. Perhaps I should point out that I have fn blue currently on the middle button of my left keymouse so when I lock fn blue I"m just mashing the two together. I then have it set so that from fn yellow and fn blue the fn yellow or fn blue keys respectively go back to the default layout from which I started. So it will toggle it back off, but I am wary of having the lock toggled on inadvertently which is why I just like you prefer to have a separate lock key. Note that in another thread Heber was talking about various options they might implement to make fn yellow or fn blue lock if for example you didn't press another key before release or whatever else (as an option you don't have to use of course)
5 years ago
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#306
I use the ARENSITO layout ( http://www.pvv.org/~hakonhal/main.cgi/keyboard). ARENSITO pretty easily beets other layouts on all categories except that Dvorak wins on alternating hands.


Here is the pic of my white layer https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4Ltru9fdmPgWFpfekpzaXZJT28. I also use an AutoHotKey(AHK) script the switch the "<" and ">" symbols with "?" and "!". Here is a link to a GooglDrive folder with the KeyMouse layout files, the AHK script, and the charts I use below. The AHK file also makes F15 "End" ";" "Enter", F16 "End" "{" "Enter", and F17 "End" ";" which are used in the orange layer (I will eventually put these function in using the KeyMouse software). (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4Ltru9fdmPgWFpfekpzaXZJT28)


Before I get into it I would like to explain how Dr. Dvorak’s reasonings are in error or no longer apply.

(1) Dvorak claimed that the most important thing for a keyboard layout is the you alternate hands for each key (as much as possible). I fail to see the reasoning for this—my father mentioned that this may be because, once upon a time, when you type a key you would move your entire hand and hammer strike each key (manual typewriter keys were stiff). What I think is FAR nor important is alternating fingers and finger motion and finger reach.
(2) For some reason Dvorak also put the “I” key beside the left index finger and the “U” key underneath it even though the letter “I” is far more common (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3cvpfoj7mb8/SwMiUtSJNZI/AAAAAAAAA3E/pwBxpnJ5oRY/s1600/letter+frequency.png).
(3) Dvorak was also designed for standard keyboard key arrangement with the rows skewed rather than in straight columns; so, easy and hard to reach key are not the same as those of the KeyMouse or Kinesis Advantage.

It is for these reasons that I stopped learning Dvorak and switched to ARENSITO. I am happy I ran into ARENSITO because I was about to make a layout myself.

Somebody out there made an amazing Keyboard Layout analyzer (http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/) that I will use for rankings. Here is what that analyzer gives for “Alice in the Wonderland Ch 1”.

Rank Layout........................Score
#1.....Arensito......................66.14
#2.....Programmer Dvorak......66.11
#3.....Colemak.....................65.83
#4.....QWERTY....................53.06
#5.....AZERTY.....................49.54

The analyzer’s results for Distance traveled:
..............................Left Hand........Right Hand.........Total
QWERTY..................14532.3...........15663.7..........30196.1
Programmer Dvorak....6085.8............11691.0..........17777.0
Arensito....................8930.0.............6966.6...........15896.6

ARENSITO wins—except of the left hand (because Dvorak put all the really common letters (vowels) and the least common letters on the left hand)
And the chart that I think is most important. How often a finger is used twice in a row. ARENSITO is more than twice as good as Dvorak.
QWERTY:.................440
Programmer Dvorak:...256
Arensito:...................104

Another thing ARENSITO does right is that the pinky has a very common key under it but uncommon above and below, because, the pinky is not very good at reaching for keys, being so short. ARENSITO was also designed for the Kinesis Advantage not the type writer layout.


I hope this helped or enlightened you in some way.
5 years ago
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#311
Jonathan Levi Very interesting. The only thing I particularly disliked about dvorak which motivated me to switch to colemak a few years back was simply that when I had my left hand on a nonkeymouse keyboard and my right hand on a regular mouse a lot of key combinations were not available other than on the right handed side of the keyboard. Qwerty tends to make a lot of things easy to do with one hand on the left and the other on the mouse, and colemak maintains a lot of that advantage and perhaps in someways ever moreso since you can hit control p with the left hand to, and only give up control e for eject.. something I rarely want to do. .. I could handle the mental remapping of typing with dvorak.. but when it came to the key combinations like control z, x, c, v, q, w, etc. it was also confusing in addition to the need to use my right hand for many of those characters. At some point I was using a version of dvorak that kept a lot of key combinations in the qwerty locations. But that only worked on certain computers and things were different on my kinesis hooked up at work to a computer I couldn't easily configure and so I ended up dealing with confusion and errors where I would hit the wrong key combination forgetting which computer I was on or which layout I should be using. That's what drove me to take the effort to learn colemak despite the relatively minor differences compared with dvorak in overall ergonomic ranking.. it just made it a lot simpler for me to switch between layouts on different computers by keeping it simply using qwerty where I had to and colemak when I could and in particular on my funky shaped ergonomic keyboard. Maybe it's a moot point with keymouse given that the need to have hands alternate between keyboard and mouse is gone, but I presume you have to deal with a lot more key combinations in strange locations as a consequence of deviating so much from the qwerty standard? That doesn't ever bug you? Anyway regardless thank you so much for sharing. I'm also curious if the layout you have pictured with delete and backspace on the inside column reflects default arensito or is something you did just for the keymouse? That would make quite a bit easier to hit backspace and delete on a regular laptop which has the default backspace key way off enough that you have to take your right hand way off the home row and then bring it back for each backspace or delete action.
5 years ago
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#313
Putting the backspace and delete keys in the middle was my own adaptation. ARENSITO was designed for the Kinesis advantage and had the backspace under the thumb; I could not do that on the KeyMouse because there are not enough thumb keys. I was needing a place to put the backspace so I tried where I put it; I think I prefer it where I put it better then under the thumb, now that I am used to it. I do not really see symbols and fn key as part of the layout in the same way anyway so I wasn't really paying attention to what ARENSITO technically is anyway.

It is true that the standard shortcut keys are moved around but on the KeyMouse they are all easily accessible so it is fine and perhaps even nice. The copy and paste shortcuts are still together which is nice, and both are on the right KeyMouse which is nice if I am mousing one-handed. Originally when I was picking up Dvorak I had a keyboard utility that when a modifier key was pressed down they keys went back to QWERTY, so, I could still do the standard hot keys with my hand on the mouse.

I did not want Colemak because it was similar to QWERTY, I did not want to get them brain tied.
5 years ago
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#314
If it were just a matter of the slight difference in score I wouldn't see much point in it, but looking at the uniqueness of it, I find some really interesting ideas about deviating from the normal approach whether on your particular choice of configuration for your keymouse or the kinesis version. I can't say that it appeals to me nearly as much for using on a standard keyboard for which as you say it wasn't particularly designed. So do you just type qwerty on regular shaped flat keyboards, even when it's your own computer or laptop?
5 years ago
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#315
Jonathan Levi I find it intriguing the idea of using a left thumb key for regular shift key. It eliminates the need for symmetry seeing as you can press pretty much every other key while holding down the left thumb other than possibly the mouse keys on the left or the alt blue next to it. Is the only reason you opted not to put shift as the key right next to fn blue because it would have been too hard to shift while holding down fn blue? Seems like that aside it would be pretty nifty to give that spot to shift and gain the two shift keys on the side, maybe allocate one to tab and one to something else. but of course.. fn blue. I do find it interesting how you seem to be using other fn layers esp. with the keys off to the side from the pinky which I presume means you don't use them nearly so often.
5 years ago
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#316
Hmm.. now you've got me thinking.. maybe I might want to return fn blue to it's normal location, make the key next to it THE shift key as I'd then only need one shift key, and make backspace and delete be the mouse buttons that would normally do left and middle click respectively. Obviously my pinky's have to do a heck of a lot work hitting the shift key all the damn time. Granted they take turns, but anyway doing so would open up the two shift keys at the expense of the one key I gave up to make room for it on the thumb spot. But that also makes me wonder.. if I have fn blue and shift key together, would I rather have the shift key or the fn blue key on the inside which in my opinion is slightly more comfortable. I'm leaning towards the regular shift key which I'll probably use a helluvalot. That also kind of solves my problem about confusing shift with the windows keys below them.
5 years ago
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#319
Ok AFTER trying it out a few minutes, I think shift on the left thumb is DEFINITELY the way to go for anyone not commited to having shift keys in the usual location. No need for caps lock because HOLD ing it down continuously is so unbelievably easy while typing almost all other keys except of course left ctrl, left alt, and other left thumb buttons. As far as the putting backspace and delete on mouse keys it feels rather weird to click mouse buttons for that.. something about the feel of the mouse click for backspace doesn't feel right or fast enough even though the location seems just righ. I guess I could move them on my now unused shift keys on each side, except I'd be afraid of mixing up with command if I were to try delete and backspace symmetrically on the shift keys, so maybe I'll put backspace on the right shift key and delete on the windows key below that. and then put the windows key way up in the upper corner that currently is considered "backspace" then move the escape key back over to the left and tab there too perhaps.. perhaps tab could go where the left shift used to be in order that fn yellow doesn't have to move away from the caps lock position. anyway.. Jonathan I think that's a really great feature of the layout you mentioned and I'm surprised you're not using it in your default keymouse layout. I'm going to reprogram my kinesis too once I get back to work at office to make that second thumb key the shift key right like they have it pictured .
5 years ago
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#321
Dang it!
@Jonathan, you had to bring that up didn't you.

I just got comfortable with Programmers Dvorak, which I picked as the best for programming on a standard keyboard, and I think it is, special characters are more valuable than nuances between the non qwerty layouts IMO. So unless you want to customize some other layout for special chars, Programmers Dvorak is/was the best choice. But now that you brought this up, I was aware of 'better' layouts for general English typing, using Dvorak on the KeyMouse clearly isn't the best pick, as the special characters are on separate layers so those benefits don't apply, and Dvorak has shortcomings in general typing.

So it's back to the drawing board for me, I'll redo my research and try to pick the best layout for programming on the KeyMouse, I'll let you guys know what I picked and why, but dang it! :-)
5 years ago
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#322
Radoslaw. i'm not sure why you would feel the need to abandon programmer's dvorak entirely rather than just tweak it a little bit to adapt to the new hardware. What was the point Jonathan made that was such a kicker for you?
5 years ago
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#323
@John
It's not that I "have" to switch, but then again I still could be using a normal keyboard or only two monitors and actually I would still be good enough with it. With the time I spend (and most of us spend) in front of the computer working I always try to find the best tool for the job, hence the KeyMouse, Programmers Dvorak or VsVim for Visual Studio before that. I treat learning Vim or a new keyboard layout as an investment, with the hours before the computer ahead of me it my life the cost of switching should be insignificant with even minimal benefit over time, so while I could switch to a "fixed" Dvorak like C-Dvorak (http://www.michaelcapewell.com/projects/keyboard/layout_capewell-dvorak.htm) or a fixed qwerty like Colemak, I will try to find the best tool for the job like I did before I had the KeyMouse when I arrived at Programmers Dvorak. Jonathan's just reminded me that my pick was now obsolete, I don't need or have to switch, and I might go for Capewell-Dvorak as the easiest to switch, but only If I don't find something clearly better - then I will just relearn again, pay the cost upfront and gain in the long run.
5 years ago
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#324
well yeah that logic is always available in theory, but if it's not clear what you're going to switch or how strong the gain to any arbitrarily chosen new target I'd think you have good reason to wait until the dust settles and you have a chance to learn more about your various options before investing in your next relearning effort. I'd be open to switching from colemak, but I'd have to find a pretty compelling benefit with full consideration of a variety of competing factors. If it's just a matter of being a smidgen better the idea that I'd be getting a return on investment is a bit weak.. esp. when there are a lot of other challenges involved esp. with a layout that might not be installed or even selectable on other folks computers without going thru extreme hopes. I do think I will definitely steal some ideas from jonathan's layout however for my kinesis and keymouse
5 years ago
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#325
Really Interesting Thanks for all the great ideas!
I was looking this stuff over last night (all night) and it is a lot to take in I am currently leaning toward Programmers Dvorak or ARENSITO for the alpha part of the keyboard. but it looks like regardless of what alpha layout you pick on the KeyMouse we will still need to roll our own for Symbols and the rest of the characters.
I would like to get other peoples thoughts on this if you would.
a couple days ago I was sure that I want to optimize all the single key press spaced that were left over after placing the Alphas to use the most common Symbols feeling this would be fast and less effort. but I am now realizing that the fastest and easiest keys are the Keys that have been used for the Alphas (regardless of which layout you choose.) so I am thinking it may be better to make all symbols on say a Blue layer but on the same keys used for the alpha keys because you are not reaching for these keys. this is assuming that is is more difficult to get to some keys such as the Top left and Bottom left and bottom right. the bad side of this idea is there will be a lot more typing that require 2 keys to get 1 character.
do you guys think two well chosen keys to get a character is better for speed than one key on the Keymouse that is a reach?
also if I am using a Key that is a reach for a very popular symbol (say top left key) do you see that leading to fatigue?

I cannot really judge this as I am still waiting for my Beta unit so I have not had the pleasure of testing the layout.


Jonathan Levi in your post with the White layer pics you mentioned giving a link to the KeyMouse layout files But I don't see the link. I just loaded the software yesterday and it would be great to have a starting point that I could customize. if you are willing :)
5 years ago
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#330
@Herb Winters Woops, I meant to post the link. I added it to the post but here it is also: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4Ltru9fdmPgWFpfekpzaXZJT28

I defiantly think that using a shift layer is easier, faster, and more ergonomic than a hard to reach key. One of the reasons is the lump under you hand that the KeyMouse has, despite being very comfortable, limits your reach because you cannot flatten your hand. Pressing a sequence of two keys is not really slow, once it is muscle memory you do it ridiculously fast--you can also move your hand fast but it is less accurate on take more energy.


And for my rant...
The reason an alternate layout has not because the staple of today is because of a miss-understanding of what an alternate layout really gives. Does another keyboard layout really help you type faster? Is has been proven fairly well that it just does not. But why does it not help you type faster, it IS mathematically provable that your fingers need to travel less. This is the question I asked myself. The problem is that you are missing what is actually limiting your typing speed. So, yes, with a better layout you can type faster--or as I should say you can type faster for the same finger movement. The limiting factor though is not your finger movement but the speed of your brain: how fast your sub conscious can determine what key to press next. What Dvorak, ARENSITO, or another layout offer is ergonomics and comfortable typing--and your amusement when another uses your keyboard (they may be questioning the KeyMouse more though...). In my research into alternate layouts, every story I found of someone switching to another layout they did not get much fast (some did get a little faster but they attributed it to them relearning how to type correctly). But, most said that their carpal tunnel issues got better. Some of this not not based on detailed studies just observations.


This is why I put comfort first in a layout, rather than speed.
5 years ago
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#331
@John Topping part of the reason I did not put the shift key under the thumb is that I find the "tab" key very important, nearly as much as "return". I also have not completely finalized my KeyMouse mappings. The shift key to the sides is not that hard to use; it is nice to have it under the thumb but I cannot put every thing under the thumb. I may move tab to the blue layer on the enter key and put the shift in its place.
5 years ago
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#335
Jonathan Levi After some getting used to it at home, I ended up going with alt blue on the left click button of the left mouse, shift in place of fn blue, and another key of my choosing (which you could make tab). I felt I actually kind of preferred alt blue on the left thumb mouse button over the tab location anyway.. same would be the case for shift. For shift I definitely prefer the real thumb key because it tends to be so reflexive and so commonly a single use at at time ryhthmic button. fn blue tends to be something I might hold down for movement click a few arrows, page down buttons or whatever and then release.. so it isn't too shabby using the left mouse click button. It did feel rather weird using left mouse button as a delete key.. not exactly a key you want to keep tapping at repeatedly, so it makes more sense as a modifier kind of button (which fn blue is). I think I highly recommend it because while tab may be precious and you can keep it where it is, shift key has to be used in combination and so having it take up your two pinky sides costs a lot. Obviously there is the cost of familiarity I'm going to have to pay when using a regular keyboard with shift in the normal places, I'll need to ensure my mental models remain distinct.
5 years ago
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#340
Thanks for the great feedback Guys,

Jonathan Levi I did see that link but it seems to be the Default layout picture the link that was missing was in regards to this statement
" Here is a link to a GooglDrive folder with the KeyMouse layout files" if you would rather not give them out no worries I am about half way done with re-creating the default layer anyway and I have been making changes which I will post here once it is complete.
your statement " using a shift layer is easier, faster, and more ergonomic than a hard to reach key" I Think I have finally come around to believe this,
thanks for the confirmation. also about the limitation with having the ball in your palm This is real helpful Because I have never typed before with a mouse in my hand:D

About your Rant. Interesting I have not looked at Maximum subconscious response times but a Quick review of what I do know makes me think that the subconscious is not that taxed and certainly is not at max capacity while typing. if you can agree that 10,000 keys per second correctly typed is considered a fast typing speed then the brain is only triggering one response every 360ms or 2.77 keys per second compare this to many utube video of people playing paino at speeds to 20 notes per second (not cords) this is only 50ms per note. and they have a much larger keyboard to span the main difference I see is the key layout is simpler and the keys are larger. Ok end of my rant :)

I don't disagree about Comfort and ergonomics being important I have both Palm and Wrist problems and am hoping that this keyboard will help with that some.

I have decided to use the arensito. Thanks for bringing it to my attention as my searching had missed that layout. I do think this layout and Dvorak are pretty close but arensito's placement of a high usage key on both little fingers home row. but the other little finger keys are low usage seems to be a good idea they still get used but not as much.

John Topping I like your idea of doubling up on the usage of the thumb keys not sure what I am going to do there but I think those keys are so Valuable that it makes sense to place more alternates there.
5 years ago
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#341
Heber Allred I Just Received my Keymouses !! that was Fast I took them out and looked them over a bit they look real nice plugged them into my Computer using the USB and they installed right away and I did a quick qwerty test everything looks great.

boy is the rest of this day going to go by SLOOOOOOW.

Tonight I will spend all night trying to figure out a good layout Ill post it by morning too so you guys can poke holes in it before I get it committed to memory the only thing worse than learning a new layout is learning a new layout twice
5 years ago
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#342
Herb Winters Obviously you're an adult and can do what you choose, but here's a thought. I was reading the arensito white paper. It indicates that the programming layer is independent from the main character layer. Maybe you could stick to qwerty on the top layer for now and focus first on working out the alternate layers which is presumably independent anyway. There may be some overlap such as for example I think arensito may put a few characters ONLY on the number/programming layer whereas you don't NEED to go to that layer for a few characters such as semicolon from qwerty, but.. if you wanted to make it not make you INSANE.. you might want to try working out the alternate layer first.. even if there's some redundancy.. For the most part the two are totally independent so I don't think there's a huge advantage to taking it on all at once.. in fact it might be easier.. and keep you less invested should you for whatever decide upon a different base layer later. It actually might in some sense be more effective anyway.. why take on two relatively independent projects at once you can try the easy one first. I also think it'll make you have a little better perspective on the shape of the keymouse to give us feedback on it's shape if you're not immediately switching to something you don't know entirely.
5 years ago
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#343
@Herb I'm glad you received your KeyMouses! I hope they work well for you. :)
5 years ago
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#344
I'm not up for switching my base layout, but if I were.. I do really like the choice Jonathan made as far as where to put backspace and delete in lieu of putting them on the thumb Arensito seems to leave a perfect location for that. For Colemak (which I'm sticking to) that would be far too weird a modification as I'd have to move "g" on the left and "j" on the right at minimum and it would just be to wacky to mess around with esp. when switching between computers and input devices.
5 years ago
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#345
John Topping Yes I think you are thinking much more sanely and I would like to break up the learning if it did not make the painful process longer.
the problem is I did some test typing on the KeyMouse Just to be sure everything was working and I am painfully slow on the keymouse using Qwerty
so I'm not so sure using the qwerty layout would be very much help and just as I started to get faster I would need to change the layout and slow back down again.so that brings me back to the cold turkey switch. But just so you know I do understand the insanity you are talking about.

my plan is this I will complete a first stab at a complete layout and post the keymouse files as well and pictures. So Everyone can get as deep into it as they have the time to. then I will plan to use my old keyboard for the rest of this week until Friday. During this time I will use the Keymouse in the evenings using a typing tutor I will also review the comments here and make revisions as needed. then Friday through the weekend I will run all waking hours on the typing tutor with any luck by money I will have a working Knowledge of where the Keys are and how to get to them I will not have muscle memory for words so I will be spelling out each words. If i am not at this point then I will repeat this plan for another week. once I can do basic key entry I will just switch over and suffer for the next 3 to 4 weeks with slow typing. But I should at least be able to work this way even though it will be slow.

anyway that is my plan I will update you on how well it works:)
5 years ago
·
#346
@Everyone Please be careful when re-arranging key caps physically on KeyMouse. Since the housings are 3D printed, it's best to hold the switch down with a flat screwdriver or similar when popping off the key cap to avoid pulling the Cherry switch out of the socket. We're still thinking of the best way to mount the switches in solid with 3D printed housings (preferably without glue) to allow users to "upgrade" to a new housing if we have a new housing they prefer.
5 years ago
·
#349
Question.. are most of the key caps uniform in shape (thumb buttons excluded)? In other words I'm wondering if even if one were to rearrange them without any mistakes that might damage anything, is it reasonably to expect the underlying typing surface to be unchanged (i.e. because the keys were (at least mostly) all shaped identically?
5 years ago
·
#350
Is it the regular alphabetic keys you're having trouble with slowing you down or is it more just getting to other characters, numbers, and such?
5 years ago
·
#352
Okay here is Version 0.1 for lack of a name I gave it a working name of C_hawk hopefully a better name can be had by someone creative in that type of thing.

here is what I have made for Goals for the layout.
1) default layer is only layer that uses Shift keys - this means that all characters do not need more than a shift or layer key + a character key
2) any key that is duplicated on another layer will be in the same position on the keyboard for each layer.
3) currently only 1 layer is locking that is the yellow layer it is used for numeric data entry and formulas (such as excel)
4) the blue layer can be shifted to from the default layer or the locked yellow layer
5) between the default layer and the blue layer all alpha characters and symbols are available
6) tried to keep high usage symbols (for programming ) on the index and middle fingers and lower usage symbols on the little finger.

Observations
I left the blue key in its original position and realized that on the blue layer there is no sense in defining any of the left thumb keys as the thumb is holding down the Fn blue so it cannot use the keys. that is maybe another reason to move the Fn Blue key.

Bugs Or things I could not figure out.
program seemed to crash every 1.5 to 2 hours. I was doing something different each time so I have not figured out how to make it happen.
however each time everything I had done up to the crash was saved correctly there seemed to be no problems with corruption from the crash.

if you have a layer that has keys defined with the shift modifiers set you can see the mark on the Key. if you make a new layer and use this current layer to copy from. The new layer will show the modifier mark on the correct key position however if you right click and look at the modifier options the shift key will no longer be checked off. and if you download the layer and press the key with the shift-modifier you will now get the non-shifted charecter if you press and hold down the shift key and then press the problem key you will get the non-shifted char the first time and if your still hold down the shift key and press it again the second time you will get the correct shifted charecter pick up the shift key and the problem repeats.
I was able to correct the problem by just going to the modifier options the shift key was unchecked even though it shows the mark on the key I checked the shift and closed the options re downloaded and it was fixed. I did this many time as I wanted to have backups as I worked each time I needed to fix every modifier on every layer. (So far I have only used the Shift modifier So I dont know if the other do the same thing.)

This may be something I am doing wrong not sure.
on my yellow layer I had to place a num-lock key just so I can turn on the num-lock all Number pad numbers dont work unless you do this
I think we need a modifier for the num-lock or even beter an option to force it to be always on. I cannot figure out why anyone would turn it off the numeric keypad is useful but the cursor keys are duplicated on any extended keyboard.

on every Extended keyboard I have owned you could hold down the Alt key and use the numeric keypad to enter 3 numbers and it or windows would convert it to the ascII graphics character for example ALT + 254 and when you release the alt key you get a ■ this only works using numbers from the numeric keypad and you must hold down the alt key for all 3 characters then release the alt key and you get the character. Anyway all that to say it doesn't work on the KeyMouse I use this all the time:(

okay here are 3 Pictures of the 3 layers used.
on the default layer you will see a key for Fn Green and Fn Oranged I have not done anything with them But they are place holders for now.

C_HawK_layout_PNG

C_HawK Layout-Yellow_PNG

C_HawK_Blue_PNG

here is the links to the 3 KeyMouse Layout files.

C_HawK_layout.keymouselayout

C_HawK-Yellow_Keymouselayout

C_Hawk_Layout-Blue_Keymouselayout

Please let me know the good and the bad, Thanks
5 years ago
·
#353
Heber Allred I am not changing the key-caps now I don't have anything that I could do except put blank key-caps on I suppose.
I have done some testing on my laser and I can engrave your keycaps well I just need to figure out a translucent paint that I can fill the engravings with.
(I need at least White,Blue and Yellow in 5-10%tranlucent colors) the cool thing is all lettering in all colors will be back-lite:) My hope would be to create a key-cap set for this layout on Key Mouse(Providing you guys don't have a problem with me doing that. if you do no worries I will just make them for myself. anyway my initial two test pieces look promising still needs more work.
5 years ago
·
#354
John Topping are your Thumb buttons different because it looks like all may buttons are the same size and depth?
5 years ago
·
#355
John Topping
Is it the regular alphabetic keys you're having trouble with slowing you down or is it more just getting to other characters, numbers, and such?


to be honest I don't really know the typing tutor I had until last night was a very old version of "Mavis Becon teaches typing" LOL the reason I bought a new copy was the old one would not run on win7 ! I actually bought this new version of the same program 2 years ago right after I jumped into the kickstarter for this keymouse. the tutor has been sitting on my shelf for 2 years so I guess it is not really new.

anyway to answer your question the old typing tutor did not tell you the key speed just the over all it was weird because it would keep track of keys you responded incorrectly or slowly too. and would bring up words with this keys more often.

I plan to test my typing speed on my current keyboard just to see what my speed is I dought is is anything super fast but I guess my thinking is If it makes it easier and less distance that sould increase anybody's speed also there is maybe a chance to reduce hand pain I won't turn that down .

I will say this the upper row on the keyboard is a reach and I do think slower than the other 3 rows. so I am for the most part happy with the key reduction on the Keymouse. although I really would like to have a Space-bar on both keymouse hands on the side of the keymouse palm rest up close and Parnell to the inner most row of keys. I think this would be the only added key I would really like.

I also expect I will gain some speed having all the most used symbols on the home row or close by it. and the fact that you can keep your fingers on the home row even while using the mouse, all these things should make the whole operation of the computer simpler and faster (not counting the huge retraining needed. which is why I only want to do this once if possible :)
5 years ago
·
#357
@John Yes the key caps should be the same shape (with exception of the keys with bumps). Many keyboards have different shaped keys to achieve some curvature, but we can achieve that by changes in our housing. This allows us to keep them all uniform. The only keys that are not the same shape are the "extra" keys some of which are a little wider than the rest.
5 years ago
·
#359
@Herb Thank you for the detailed descriptions of the software bugs. We will address them. Regarding the Num Lock key, maybe we can just have a setting in the software to "Enable NumLock when software starts". This might be the easiest way to deal with it. I don't know any way for the device itself to detect and turn it on by itself (I think it will require software).
5 years ago
·
#362
Heber Allred Yes I think that would work because I found I could use another keyboard to turn on the num-lock and I could also turn it off with the other keyboard. another option would be for the keymouse to check if the number-lock status bit is on before sending the numberpad 0-9 keys if so sent a num-lock key then the number pad number key. this would be a little better because it wouold work without software and would correct it is another keyboard turned it off. I'm sure it is more work for me the quickest option is the best.

Sorry Icould not give you more information on the Crashes but seems to be hard to reproduce other than just waiting for it. anyway I will work with the keyboard and software more tonight so I will let you know if I have any lucj tracking that down.

Thanks to All you guys for making such a Great solution ! I knoe it has been a long road:)
5 years ago
·
#363
Heber Allred
The only keys that are not the same shape are the "extra" keys some of which are a little wider than the rest.


the long keys look too long to fit on my keymouse will hit the side case plastic or another key cap. Is this correct or did I miss something I would like to have a couple keys bigger but I did not think they would fit so I used them for the sample testing on the Laser. :o
5 years ago
·
#364
@Herb Regarding etching key caps, there is a clear coat over the top, which will make it more difficult for you to engrave. The factory applies multiple colors of paint on the key cap then engraves (different depths of engraving cuts down to the Yellow/Blue layers), then clear coats to achieve our desired effect (with all colors backlit). I have no issue with you creating key cap sets for yourself or other KeyMouse customers. We will be getting into custom key caps, so I'm sure there will be overlap with our future path of product offerings. We already have several versions in stock (Colemak, DVORAK, QWERTY, QWERTZ, AZERTY, Blank). We are also working on a re-legendable key cap (allows users to print their own graphics and insert). See attached link for the current key caps we have in stock. These were designed for our original KeyMouse (with more keys), so they would need re-worked for the current KeyMouse.
5 years ago
·
#365
Heber Allred Very interesting I was attempting to cut through the black layer and did that fairly well but I did not realize the other colored layers were in their I will do more tests tonight you got me curious if I can find the different layers should be fun. Well when you are ready to cut keycaps I will be happy to share the settings I find that work for each color. That is assuming I can find the right settings ;)
5 years ago
·
#366
@Herb On the wide key caps, they were initially designed for the previous version of KeyMouse, so they won't likely fit well on the current KeyMouse. We just shipped them anyway since they are manufactured as a set anyway.
5 years ago
·
#367
@Herb Regarding the crashing software: Are you using any software Macros? I suspect the crashing may be due to a possible bug in the process thread that handles macro execution.
5 years ago
·
#368
No I have not done anything with Macros.
5 years ago
·
#369
Thanks for the info. I'll do some more testing on my end, also.
5 years ago
·
#373
Herb Winters I guess those of us already familiar with a matrix layout (no staggering) and/or a keyboard that already splits the keys in half have a lot less to adapt to, so it's understandable. I hope it's getting easier for you whatever layout you're using whether that's ARENSITO or QWERTY or whatever else. I would observe with respect to the idea that you want space on both sides, i can understand the familiarity of that. On a regular keyboard where the space bar is under both thumbs of course you were smart to make use of both thumbs, but I don't think it's really needed if you can break the habit and retrain your left thumbs for other frequent actions. heck make it the E key if you like as it is on the maltron layout because e is typed 13 percent of the time among characters according that ARENSITO guy's white paper. Speaking for myself I've used kinesis with right only space and enter bar for years and it's been great. The only keys in my opinion worth having on both sides are the one's that need to regularly be combined with other keys and even that can be compromised to make room if one is willing. But space and enter on right may be hard to get used to, but I think you will just fine in the long run if you can tolerate that. Otherwise it's harder for me to give advice on the precise layout, because it probably depends a lot on your personal character frequency and use patterns. I take it from your layout you're a guy who uses backspace a lot more than delete. I guess I got really used to having backspace and delete super easy on the Kinesis and that's why I am seeking to retain that.
5 years ago
·
#374
John Topping I started the learning yesterday did about an hour on the typing tutor which did a typing test first so I was looking a three pictures of the keymouse layout on the right side of the computer while running the typing tutor on the left. using the keymouse I came in at 3 wpm That feels like a big learning curve. funny thing is the tutor figured I was a beginner and started with me learning the home row for a Qwerty keyboard. that was kind of funny I'm using arensito anyway it seemed to work fine. I'll do some more tonight. I am not sure if I am doing something wrong but I found that in order to hit the K key with my little finger (p on the Qwerty) I had to twist my hand counter clockwise which meant my other fingers would loose their position. do you see this ?

On the space I think you may be right I found that my Right thumb space seemed comfortable right away once I got started. the funny thing was every once in a while my left thumb would jump in to help (old habits die hard) and press the Fn blue thumb button. it had no efficet so I just needed to try again with the right.

I am still considering the idea of moving the blue or yellow to the left mouse button currently I do not have them assigned.

another thing that is happening is the mouse travels all over the place while I am typing. Does this happen while you are type or is this me just needing more practice :)

I use the back space for everything hardly ever use Del. Not sure why was not a conscious effort.
5 years ago
·
#375
is there a typing tutor out there for the arensito key layout ?
5 years ago
·
#411
Heber Allred Sorry I did not get back to you Got a bit bussy yesterday.
Tuesday night I did some testing and found that I cannot stop on wither the yellow or blue layer I want down to 5%power and 50ms pulse and still went right through to white plastic. But I can do pretty nice white backlight lettering I just need to find some 90 to 95% opaque yellow and bluew paint I think I could still make a usable keycap. the coating you were talking about does not seem to stopp cutting down to the white layer. but it may be creating a rough looking top edge. this summer I will try to do a blank key cap and see if I can make it look reasonable not positive I can do it but it is worth a little more effort. I am guessing the cost of doing a 3 color custom set of keycaps would cost more than I could afford does you supplier have a minumim number of sets you would need to order?
5 years ago
·
#414
Herb Winters I admire all the experimentation you're doing with the keycaps, but if it just gets to be more trouble for you than it's worth I'm pretty sure you're capable of managing to memorize the layout with less effort. All else being equal and not cost, it's certainly nice to have the keyboard display the layout you're actually using in case you ever want to take a peak at it, but most of the time.. the layout gets saved in my head and memory anyway if I'm ever to become proficient with it. Anyway just wanted to point out the obvious that you could just memorize your custom layout and let it go as far as the keycaps. I've been using keyboards with the keycaps all wrong for years. Sometimes it's actually helpful to have it display the qwerty layout that I'm not really using when I'm trying to compare against what it would be by default, because the layout I actually use I ultimately know quite well in my head/fingers. That being said, more power to you if this adventure is something you want to continue to pursue. Just don't feel forced into it!
5 years ago
·
#416
your Right John Topping It is not a need I am learning arensito with the qwerty keycaps. but long term I would just like to have a correct set of keycaps to make if look more professional. If I can do the keycaps myself it will not likely be done till the fall as I am getting ready to go to production on a new product and it will tie me up do most of the summer. that is why I am trying to cram my learning curve on learning Arensito and KeyMouse.
5 years ago
·
#417
@Anyone# wishing they had a typing tutor for there custom layout I have found a solution
Michaelcapewell's tying tutor. it is a simple typing tutor.
The cool thing about this typing tutor is that it can be made to work with any Layout and you can setup your own lessons with which keys you want to learn firstsuch as the home row for your layout. The Best thing is all the changes are made by editing two text files no programming required. you can setup multiple lessons with each lesson having multiple exercises with each exersice gradually becoming more difficult. I am creating a set of files for this typing tutor that will work with this layout. I will post them here along with the final version of the layout that I end up using.
5 years ago
·
#421
@Herb The manufacturer does have minimums since they have to set up. At some point I do want to offer custom key caps, though. I just don't know how soon we will get to it. I imagine it would be a button right in the software "Order Key Cap Set", or "Print Key Cap Set" if we use re-legendable key caps. I think your laser is much more powerful than the one used for etching the keys originally ;)
5 years ago
·
#425
well, I didn't get as much time on the keyMouse as I planned this last weekend. But did get enough to start noticing Just how comfortable the KeyMouse is on my hands and wrists. I am not noticing the reach for the upper keys as much as I did the first day with it. I am really very Happy with this solution. Thanks again to the KeyMouse Team Awesome Job! A++.
5 years ago
·
#426
@Herb Thanks for your kind comments! We will to continue to make it better and better :)
5 years ago
·
#477
Hi it took alot longer than I hoped but I did finally settle on a layout here are the main features.
1) any key that is duplicated on another layer is always on the same key (okay there are a couple exceptions)
2) the Blue Layer does not locked but is more like a blue shift key to get additional chars mostly symbols
3) the yellow layer is optimized for numeric data entry. you can lock this layer on and still access the blue layer from the yellow for symbols.
4) uses a modified version of arensito.
5) all standard keys can be entered using no more than two key strokes. such as Fn Blue+a key or Fn Yellow+akey or Shift + a key.

here is a link to the current version hope you like it.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B38pSN4OR41aUmR4ZHdkdG5UdWM
5 years ago
·
#478
@Herb thanks for sharing your layout info. I'm not personally using ARENSITO style layout, but I hope those that do will find it useful. :)
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